77: Angie Lion - How to Build Trust with Your Team and Clients Through Emotional Intelligence

In today’s episode of Leading Her Way, Nikisha is joined by Angie Lion from Black River Performance to explore how emotional intelligence transforms team dynamics, client experiences, and long-term business growth.

If you’re a creative entrepreneur, small business owner, or CEO trying to build a strong, connected team or gain the trust of potential clients, this conversation is your next step.

You’ll learn:

• What emotional intelligence (EQ) really is and why it’s different from IQ
• How to recognize when your team members are silently struggling
• How entrepreneurs often lose trust without realizing it—and how to rebuild it
• Why client trust starts long before the pitch
• How boundaries, feedback, and compassion shape high-performing cultures

Plus, Nikisha shares real scenarios from her business and coaching work, like managing grief in contractors and how to support your team while growing your empire.

Connect with Angie:

Website

Tune in and uncover the skills that make or break client and team relationships in every business.

Chapters

• 0:00 Episode Introduction
• 1:53 Understanding Emotional vs Regular Intelligence
• 6:13 Five Components of Emotional Intelligence
• 11:29 Creating Psychological Safety in Teams
• 18:21 Supporting Team Members Through Life Challenges
• 28:39 Transitional Intelligence for Career Growth
• 38:10 Setting Healthy Boundaries and Episode Closing

Transcript

Announcer: 0:01

Welcome to Leading Her Way with your host and business guru, Nakesha King. This podcast is the ultimate destination for women, creative entrepreneurs, who want to break free from burnout. If you are overwhelmed by client demands and feel like you're doing this all alone, you, my friend, are in the right place alone. You, my friend, are in the right place Now. Let's dive in for steps to take back your time and simplify your workflow. All right, Nikisha, take it away.

Nikisha King: 0:36

Hello everyone, welcome to Leading Her Way podcast. I'm your host, nikisha, and today we have an amazing guest with us. I have Angie Leone from Black River Performance Management Company, and today we have some great topics for you. We're going to be talking about emotional intelligence. As team members, so, as you know, as our creative entrepreneurs, we hire or contract virtual assistants, online business managers and anytime, we work with anyone, even our family.

Nikisha King: 1:06

Yes, everyone has emotional intelligence, everyone has feelings, and these feelings sometimes affect their actions and they can show up differently, in different ways at different times. So I'm going to say welcome, angie. Thank you for coming and sharing your wealth of knowledge with us. I'm excited because I think today we're going to be talking about emotional intelligence and transitional intelligence, and that's a real good one for our amazing entrepreneurs who are listening today, and you're going to find out why, so just keep listening. So, angie, please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit more about your company, how it came to be. Are you working it alone? Do you have a partner by your side? I'm all ears.

Angie Lion: 1:53

Thank you for this opportunity to share my story and to just share some of the wisdom that I've been able to cultivate in my long time on this planet. So emotional intelligence is the skill that I didn't have early on. This will kind of share how it came to be and how my business came to be. So I started off working in the operating room and working with surgeons and I started to work with really intelligent people and some of them had very high emotional intelligence and could really get their teams to bend over backwards for them and feel like they were a part of the team. They could make the team kind of work like a symphony. And then I noticed other leaders because the surgeon is the leader in the room how they could come in and create chaos and bring the weather into that room and I would notice how it would be fearful and it would be a place where people wouldn't speak up and they would do some kind of lateral violent behaviors and ultimately I saw this as something that would impact the patient, even though they wouldn't want it to. Things might take longer, things might not be lined up because people might be passive, aggressive. So I started to notice how intelligence and emotional intelligence weren't the same thing, and at the time I was starting to teach at Boise State University and the College of Western Idaho.

Angie Lion: 3:02

I was starting to teach at Boise State University and the College of Western Idaho and I was in some courses to learn about teaching and workplace training and leadership, and I took a class where I had to write a paper on emotional intelligence and I came across Daniel Goldman's work and then I realized, wow, this is what I don't have a lot of.

Angie Lion: 3:21

And also I noticed that a lot of the people that I work with you know this is the skill, though it's something that can be built, and at first I thought it was something that you know, you were born with, or some people were really good at this, and then I learned just like surgery, you can learn anything as a skill. I can learn to do a total knee just as much as I can learn to do a facelift, as I can learn to fix. You know, take out your appendix. So when I think about the skills for the job, emotional intelligence, when I was getting the students ready, was the skill that the employers were looking for, and when we're running a business, this is something we're looking for as well when we're hiring someone is that some. We want somebody that understands their own emotions, understands the emotions of other people and are able to basically play well in the sandbox.

Nikisha King: 4:11

So so wait before you keep going. This is so good. Emotional intelligence is very different from intelligence. I want to repeat that again for the people all the way in the back Emotional intelligence is different from intelligence.

Nikisha King: 4:26

Now, Angie, the reason I can like so empathize or relate to what you're saying is because my background started in health and when I worked in a hospital facility, the emotional intelligence was lacking. You had a building full of intelligent human beings who were skilled in what they did, but bedside manners OMG, where did they go? I've even had people come to me with some energy and I was like I don't ever want to see you again. You are not my physician. We are going to go to someone else in your practice because they lack the EI. So I think having people even hear that and bringing it to the consciousness of our minds is so cool, because every day we interact with people and doesn't mean everyone has the emotional intelligence in their interaction.

Nikisha King: 5:16

There are a lot of CEOs that I speak to who will always complain about the dynamics of having a team and sometimes I wonder if it's because they don't relate well or they relate so much. Some of them run their company through their emotions and I'm like hold up, you got to pull back some of that emotion, because this is too much for this environment. You want people to help you. You don't want people who depend on you while you're running a business. Absolutely want people who depend on you while you're running a business, and that is a possibility too right, so it still has some form of balance to it, even where we work, in the workplace. Now let's talk about what it looks like in the workplace. How can we identify when someone either a CEO, an entrepreneur, a team member, which are employee or a contractor? How can we recognize when someone does have emotional intelligence and when someone's lacking it? Okay, that's a great question.

Angie Lion: 6:14

Well, first of all, I will just say that most people think they have it, most people think they have it and other people don't think that other people don't have it. So that's a place to really start, and I think we have to be really honest with ourselves is that we all can improve, and to think that I'm superior to you is a hard place to be. I think it's more like a culture that we are creating in our workplace of we all have room to grow. We're a learning and growing culture and we're going to be offering feedback to one another so that we can grow, because we all do have blind spots. So I think, if we see it from that type of perspective where we, even as the leader, say I'm the CEO, I have room to improve in this area as well. I know I don't handle things well when I'm stressed. These are some of my shadow behaviors or these are some of my overextensions, and so I'm working to improve my snappiness or my critical nature or my over-talkativeness when I get insecure, right? So really it's building the culture and that's where we come in with culture work to help organizations understand that wanna be learning and growing and improving consistently, that they are creating the environment for people to know the language, because in a culture we need a language, right?

Angie Lion: 7:35

So when we're talking about emotional intelligence, what does that even mean to you, right? And so we want to define EQ. Eq or EI is the same thing. It means your emotional quotient, so, or, and it's basically a measurement of how you use your emotions to benefit yourself and for the benefit of others, the same way that IQ is how intelligent you are, right. But the thing about IQ is that it does. It's kind of fixed. It's more crystallized where emotional intelligence is something we can grow, and it's a skill that the more you grow it, the more you're going to be needed, the more you're going to make. The research shows that the more money you'll make, the more you'll be promoted, the more your relationships will thrive, and so this is why I've spent a lot of time in my life improving my own and working to help others improve theirs. So I think it really comes down to the culture and defining it.

Angie Lion: 8:24

And then what does that entail? When we define it, we break it down into five components, which is self-awareness, which is the first step. We can't do anything if we're not self-aware. And only 15% of the population, across all industries, are actually self-aware, but everybody thinks they are. So we have to gain more awareness and with more awareness then we can become to regulate better. Regulate when we're upset. How are we going to handle this? To make better decisions? And then also so the self part.

Angie Lion: 8:54

There's three components that are self self-awareness, self-regulation and then our own motivation. And how do our moods, how are those impacted by? How do those impact our motivation? And how do we motivate ourselves when we don't feel like doing things? Because we all know there's times where we don't feel like doing things that are good for us, like going to the gym. Well, how do I go, even when I don't feel like? Or getting up early even when I don't feel like it, those types of things. And then we have the component that's more relationship management, which is your social awareness how you read a room, how you understand, feel the energy, understand when's an appropriate time to have the discussion. And then also, how do you regulate? Once you become more aware, how do you regulate yourself or regulate the emotions of other people and help deescalate them? So it's human skills. I hate that they're called soft skills.

Nikisha King: 9:42

Why you don't think they're soft. Wait, wait. Do you hate that it's called soft skills? Because the word soft for you means like how people say you're girly. Is that how you interpret soft?

Angie Lion: 9:53

I don't know why I hate it. That's a really good question. I've never been asked that.

Nikisha King: 9:58

But I think, think about it, because it's like you're soft. We've come to live in an environment where it's either you're soft or you're hard right, and usually we even identify that as feminine energy and masculine energy. We love to give things labels, labels that don't even matter. So point blank is just a skill. It's not human, it's not soft and it's not hard. It is a skill because it's acquired through learning. I love that. That's all it is.

Angie Lion: 10:25

I do know where it came from and it helps me understand where the term came from now. It's the soft skills meant human skills, for the military, and the hard skills meant you know, like getting along, leadership, managing people, all that kind of stuff. But then the hard skills were the gun and the tank.

Nikisha King: 10:40

Yes, it was taking people out. You had to close your soft side off to be the person that needed to survive in battle where your life is at risk. So it's a military thing and it serves them, because they do. To defend our freedom, to defend us, they literally have to switch. Hence the reason when they come back, we should have a lot more in place for them, because they're risking their well-being for us, their well-being for us, and I get that and I think.

Nikisha King: 11:08

But I think in corporate, I think soft skills became soft. I think it had a negative connotation. In the army it didn't because it was required, but when it became corporate, I think that was a negative connotation because you still require human skills. You still require skills of emotional intelligence to walk in the room, read it, know how to negotiate, know how to connect, because in business it's not about what you know, it's about who you know. And if it's about who you know, we are required for emotional intelligence. I need to connect with you. I need you to trust me and understand I got your back. How can I do that in a very short period of time? Right, so it's really not soft, it's a required skill.

Nikisha King: 11:43

But what I want to come back to is how can we identify it? Because, as entrepreneurs who are very hungry and growing and that is who I'm working with, I work with beautiful, iconic CEOs they have to have a team, like they can't build an empire on their own. I don't believe we've built anything on our own. Usually in solitaire, we kind of lose it. We lose a lot. So how do we identify some of the mannerisms, the language based on what you told us about self-regulation, self-awareness? When do we know someone is not aware of their emotions and we see them act out? And if they do it, how do we help them become aware in that situation?

Angie Lion: 12:29

I love that. I think everybody is individual and we need to look at people as individuals and find out what they know about themselves. First, I like to have a deep conversation about what they're aware about Like. What are their strengths, what are their weaknesses? How good are they at aware about Like. What are their strengths, what are their weaknesses? How good are they at getting feedback?

Angie Lion: 12:46

Some people can tell you that they're good at these things in their interviews because their job is to sell themselves right In an interview and they've used AI to be everything you want and they're a match.

Angie Lion: 12:56

But then oftentimes they get in our organization and within six months to eight months, the mask falls off and it's kind of like dating right.

Angie Lion: 13:04

So all of a sudden, here's what you actually have, and so we start to see behaviors that don't align with you know what was in the application.

Angie Lion: 13:13

And so for me, right at that point is the opportunity to ask to see how well they take feedback, because somebody who has a high emotional intelligence actually and a growth mindset mindset actually wants to get better and they actually want feedback because, hopefully, the culture that they're working in is a psychologically safe culture where the people that are surrounding them, want to see them do better, they want to see their growth, they want to cultivate an atrium for human flourishing in their organization, and so many people don't come from those environments. And if they've got that baggage that they're bringing into this organization, you can find out pretty quickly if it's high or low by the way they behave, because everything, all the emotions, are going on under the surface. If you think of an iceberg, the emotions are all underneath whatever's going on in their life. What you see is the tip of the iceberg, which is the behaviors. So people get hired for skills and fired for behaviors.

Nikisha King: 14:10

Wow, that is so true. That is so true. Isn't that like weird? We hire for skills but fire for emotion because they don't know how to engage well with their support or their team. And that is true. When we hire people, it's not like we're hiring them to work on their own. They still have to communicate, they still have to engage with people, but we don't, we don't hire on that, we don't be like we're not trying to figure out what their skills are.

Nikisha King: 14:36

Emotional, I'm like this is so true. I love that. Yeah, let me ask you this in regards to let's do an example If we had someone who was maybe in a managerial role and they had their team members or their lower employee like not lower, but employees that they were overseeing wasn't getting the thing that they needed right, and they would have to repeat several times to this person how to do it or something, and they then became condescending, or their tone became condescending, and the other members realized that how can we step in and help that person? What would that process look like? To bring them to awareness, to bring them to feedback? What will we do in that situation?

Angie Lion: 15:29

Wonderful there's a few ways to do it. One of the ways we do use assessments that kind of show strengths and weaknesses and behaviors and communication and emotional intelligence. We use all of them to help the person have more self awareness in the beginning and also be okay with talking about their strengths and weaknesses. I see those as indicator lights and so if I were talking with that person and we'd been working together, we would say, like I'm noticing some of the stress indicator lights going off for you, I would check in with them how are you doing? What are your challenges? How can I support you? Because I'm seeing some behaviors that are not normal for you. You know you're not your best self, behaviors, not your strengths. I'm seeing some of the the overextensions, because any strength overuse can become an overextension. Right and just like, if you're a talkative person like myself, if I get nervous and I continue to just talk and not listen, well, that usually means I'm nervous or insecure or not feeling good about myself. So when I see those indicator lights, it tells me to check in with that person and find out what they need, what's stressing them out, what emotions are going on under the surface. We have 400 emotions a day, 26 an hour, I want to say 40,000 thoughts a day and a lot of emotions going on. So we're complicated beings, right? So sometimes it's just checking in with that person and getting a pulse, like think about the healthcare, right. Like checking their temperature, finding out.

Angie Lion: 16:58

One of the things I do is an emotion check-in with teams, finding out right at the beginning of the meeting, even if it was on Zoom, and you could use a tool like a moodimeter from Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence or a feelings wheel or something like that, where everybody shares what they're actually feeling right at that moment before you start the meeting, so that you can find out this person's anxious, this person's frustrated, this person is overwhelmed as a leader. When I find that out from my team, I'm going to shift what we need to talk about versus everybody's feeling at ease and chill and like excited. As a leader, I can take the temperature of my team and find out. Everybody's good, we can push right now. We can get this done. Sometimes, when everybody on the team is anxious and resentful, I need to shift as that leader.

Nikisha King: 17:46

Yes, but that needs awareness for us to shift.

Nikisha King: 17:48

If you're not aware. You're going to push because we got to get this thing done. We don't care about your feelings, because your feelings have nothing to do with this business. Right? That's the other outlook of it. Let me ask you this what is the question to ask to get the actual feeling of your team members? Because when people get on a meeting, go hi everyone, how are you guys today? Oh, we're good, we're good, we're good, but you know that's not the real feeling. So what's a better question to ask to get that real feeling.

Angie Lion: 18:16

So what's a better question to ask to get that real feeling? That's why I put an actual graph up. Let's say it's a Zoom meeting. It can be just one that's in the room on a PowerPoint. It's just an emotion. You can even have a handout with a moodimeter. It shows you like 80, some emotions and it shows you what color vibe you're in. So people only have about a vocabulary of three emotions based on Brene Brown's research. You know the mad, sad, glad, triad, right. Or they know pissed off, I'm happy or I'm sad.

Angie Lion: 18:44

Yeah but it's still the same foundation mad, sad, angry. So, expanding our vocabulary and having them create. No, I'm actually feeling a little overwhelmed. I'm feeling, and now I know the difference between overwhelm and stress. Overwhelm means I might need an intervention and I can't continue, Whereas stress means it's you know. Is the stress too bad, Like you can't handle it? It's more about finding out where people actually are and having the right vocabulary for things so that they can name their emotions, they can ask for the help they need. It's bringing awareness into your teams and to yourself as the leader, because people can't leave their emotions at the door. If they could, everybody would be doing it. They're human beings with 400 emotions a day.

Nikisha King: 19:23

Right, and they do believe that they do, because some people would tell you that I. What do they build inside of them? You know what? It is not dividers they. They put it in this yes, they love using that word to think they are compartmentalizing their emotion. So if I have to go to work today, I'm gonna put all of this in a box.

Nikisha King: 19:43

But I'm gonna be honest with you, it never lives in a box. It's your subconscious behavior to do things without recognizing you're doing it. So when you think you're putting that situation that makes you feel really upset in a box and you walk in and someone says good morning and you go and you think the grunt was a hello, the grunt's not a hello. That is the issue you put in the compartment. It is not. You did not move that to the, and that's the thing about it.

Nikisha King: 20:07

We really believe we have compartments, but on a real level. The people who do compartmentalize we call them multiple personality disorders level. The people who do compartmentalize we call them multiple personality disorders that's the ones that we know compartmentalize when they literally change the identity of self to cope with whatever they're struggling with. So that's the extreme of that. But what I want to know is that now we understand the behavior you gave us a tactic about.

Nikisha King: 20:35

When you're at a meeting, show some form of a wheel, emotional wheel, or a sign that someone can relate to. But I'm going to be honest with you, no matter where we are on a small business level, if I have like five or 10 people, I can maybe do that and get away with them being honest, because the culture I've cultivated. Now, if I have a hundred people but I'm on a meeting with 20 of them to tell me their real feeling of anxious overwhelm makes them look like they don't know what they're doing, how, as a leader, do we give people the comfort to be honest with their feelings? And how, as a leader, although we need to generate revenue to pay their payjack, how, as a leader, do we support that right there, in that moment? What can we say? What can we do to give them the space to feel their feelings but still take it to the next level, where we work on the project or the agenda.

Angie Lion: 21:28

Yeah, well, I think it's seeing them as a human being that has struggles and challenges. And when people feel cared about and they feel like somebody has their back and they feel seen and they feel heard, they'll go out of their way to make your company thrive. That's so true and I think we skip this step and think we got business to do and we need to get A, b and C and we go straight into tasks. Sometimes that five minute check-in is all they needed and then you follow up with them as the leader later, because you don't have time in the meeting to address everybody's feelings. But if I know that so-and-so is overwhelmed or feeling anxious, I can do a touch-in with them later and ask them hey, I noticed you mentioned and even if it's just in a waterfall in the chat they put in two feelings. They don't have to, like go around the room if you got 100 people on the Zoom, you just put it in the chat to two feelings you're currently feeling. People generally type those in the more psychological safety you bring into your company where they can share how they feel what's going on. It takes time to build that trust and it takes time to build psychological safety because you don't know what backgrounds they came from or what other bosses they've had. So you, as the leader, are creating the atrium for them to grow and to share those feelings. They're not gonna come in and do it right out of the gate and tell you their soul, their deepest, darkest things, but I'll tell you.

Angie Lion: 22:49

Sometimes you open the door and they will walk right through it and then you find out what's actually going on in their life and then, once you know that, you start to understand. This is why these behaviors are showing up. They're actually getting divorced, they're living in their car, their teenage daughter is pregnant. They, you know, you name it. You find things out and then it's like well, I know a lot of leaders are like, well, that's not my business, you know. Then it's like, well, I know a lot of leaders are like, well, that's not my business, you know. But if an employee is giving you more time than they are their own family of their life, it's your business to care about them as a human being, and sometimes that might be offering them an EAP. Sometimes that might be offering them you need to take a couple of days just to get your life in order. You can't function when you are on the bottom of Maslow's hierarchy. Again, what's EAP? Employee Assistance Program, maybe like some counseling things like that, something where Coaching?

Nikisha King: 23:44

counseling, other services, Coaching counseling some support.

Angie Lion: 23:46

Maybe you can't, maybe that you don't have the capacity, but you can give them another. Or maybe you are that person that is not their counselor, but you're offering support, you're asking them what they need, you're seeing them that they actually when some. If you think about Maslow's hierarchy, the bottom of it is, you know, food and shelter, and then we start to get into other needs. When we lose those main things, we aren't in a place to learn and we're not in a place to grow or to thrive. And so it's important to know if your employees have, you know, went from the top to the bottom like chutes and ladders. Life happens that way sometimes you could be on the top the ceo and the next thing you know your life is upside down because you are going through a divorce and you're going through trouble things with your kids. Life happens, we have life quakes and it's important to know where people are and to kind of meet them there and see how you support them through that time, because sometimes when we intervene we can speed up the process, because we can give them help, the support and everything that they need so that they can start to thrive in our organization. Some people start to live in that space and that's when we have to find out if they're poachable or if they need to exit the organization. Like you know, there's. We need to find out what's actually going on.

Angie Lion: 25:01

But if you've had a, I think as somebody that we worked with, they had a. This executive had a top performer and all of a sudden she called us and said I don't know what to do with Gloria. She's not thriving anymore. And we walked her through one of our models, you know, as it relates to human motivation, and it's like did you check her car, her competence, her autonomy and her relatedness and her in her job? Yes, I went through all of these things. How about at home? Well, no, I don't want to talk to her about her home life. Okay, just trust us, just ask her, just open the door. So she has the conversation. She opens the door and Gloria walks right through the door and shares yes, I'm getting divorced, my teenage daughter's pregnant and my mother-in-law's moving in.

Angie Lion: 25:41

Wow, so we learn that? Yeah, so by learning a little bit more, we go all right. How do we support Gloria through this? Maybe she needs two or three days off to like clear her head. Maybe she needs an employee assistance program. Maybe her coworkers ask her if she's open to sharing with her coworkers, because she really does connect well with her team and if they knew that she was struggling, maybe they can offer her to go for a walk or to vent or to do something. But it's really a team, it's really caring about your team, just like you were a sports team, right? Like, how do we help you be more, perform better? We need to support you so that you can perform better.

Nikisha King: 26:20

Right, it is a cycle. Yeah, you have a team and you support your team. They support you in the business that they come to every day and give eight plus hours to and as a leader, it's one of the things I love about leadership. We define leaders or leadership in different ways. One is a drill sergeant, one is compassionate, one is about helping people rise and level up and they don't hear where they stand on that and that's really good. But I've always been into how can I help my team? And there was a recent situation where I had a contractor who was working with me doing really well and the things that I desired from them. I don't know if it was emotional intelligence, but I wanted them to feel what I was feeling for the people we were serving. I served women entrepreneurs. I wanted them and they're female, the contractor and I wanted them to understand what we were doing was to help them.

Nikisha King: 27:14

And at this moment she had lost one of her. She lost a grandparent and my first thing was like, if you lost a grandparent, like take time. But in her circumstance, taking time means no income and she wasn't willing to jeopardize that, but her work was jeopardized and I was just like okay, so what I did? I said I had to pause and I started to. I usually am aware to the fault where I'm like okay, nikisha, how can I be better in this? Right, how can I create easier systems? I always go to me first. I have nothing to do with anyone. I'm like listen, I understand, but how can I make the system better? So your brain power doesn't have to be used up so much. But I can support you in that way and we're planning to revisit and work together again. And in that situation, that was something where, as much as I wanted her to take time off to grieve, she didn't feel like she could because her shelter, her food was at risk. And I just feel like these are the moments where I learn and I'm like okay, because as I build this empire that I'm desiring and I'm working towards, it will be massive.

Nikisha King: 28:22

But having an EAP program, having this point where you could take bereavement for a certain amount of time and, yes, you still can get paid, so you still can enjoy your labor and time you've put with us, how do we support you?

Nikisha King: 28:30

And I think, as CEOs, we don't really transform into that. So what I want to talk to you about is the next part, the transitional I or intelligence. And one, I want you to tell us a little bit of what that means. And two, what do we, as women entrepreneurs who are in the creative field, have to transform into to become our future self, the woman who we want to develop into, or the man or the non whatever non-binary that who do we need to become in regards to our transitional intelligence, to step into that person that we desire, that millionaire, that whatever you're looking to do doesn't have to be financial, but whatever we do, we always bring in the revenue, especially if we're really good at it. What do you need to do to step into that next stage? So tell us what TI means and go into that.

Angie Lion: 29:20

Okay, it can be called TI or TQ, just like emotional intelligence or emotional quotient. It's basically your ability to navigate change with awareness, adaptability and with skills, and TQ is a measurement that it's how well you move through those life changes and transitions aren't just one time events in our lives. They're cycles of endings and beginnings, and there's endings, there's messy middles and there's new beginnings. So first of all, I would want to identify where you are in this transition. First of all, you probably have a lot of transitions going on in your life that you've never even thought about. Some of us are good at endings and we don't mind the endings, and that's okay. Some of us are good at messy middles and we don't mind that uncertainty and that in-between phase where things feel unclear. And some of us are better at new beginnings, loving having a fresh identity and a perspective or a new chapter. So I would first start to identify where you are in this transition. So let's just talk about for a moment there's a lot of different transitions that can be going on, but let's just take this to career-based right, because we could be having physical transitions in our body, such as menopause, such as a health diagnosis, but think about it from the professional. We'll stay in that realm.

Angie Lion: 30:45

But where are you? Are you thinking about leaving your job and starting a business that you know there's an ending coming? You know it's coming, you're afraid to take the leap. You're wondering. You know you have a lot of wonder and curiosity and also a lot of fear around. We'll talk about threats in a minute. But there's a lot, of, a lot of curiosity and also a calling. There's a soulful piece that for me it's like a life is calling. Your soul is calling and you know you want to do this thing and it keeps coming up, but you just are afraid to leave the comfort of for me it was higher education, because it's a safe job, right.

Nikisha King: 31:26

It is yeah, the safe the quotes. If you can't see the quotes, safe is a yes, that's a good one Go ahead.

Angie Lion: 31:32

It had, you know, a steady income. I could get, you know, professional development. I had really state benefits, all of the things. So it was a safe job for me. But I knew that I wanted to serve more. I knew I wanted to be a business owner. I knew I wanted to help people in a capacity where I get to call their shots as far as what I can do, because oftentimes those institutions that we work in keep us held back from some of the skills and talents that we want to offer. So I knew for me, when I was leaving higher ed, that I was. I wanted to, but I had fear of the money part, the scarcity mindset, right Of what, and so understanding that I was struggling to let that ending go. And you know, but it, it.

Angie Lion: 32:15

It didn't take too long before I was ready to. I was go, and you know, but it didn't take too long before I was ready to. I was in it and I took the leap. And then I was in the messy middle of starting a business. And then you start to learn when you go from working for someone to be an entrepreneur, then you're in the middle of oh wait, I'm the marketer, I'm the accountant. I'm the business owner. You're everything. I'm the marketer.

Nikisha King: 32:36

I'm the accountant, I'm the business owner, you're everything.

Angie Lion: 32:37

Then you're just in the soup of all of it right.

Nikisha King: 32:40

Yes, and the messy middle? I don't believe needs to be messy. I believe we choose messy because we get in our head about all the things rather than going. Let me sit down, let me organize the mess, let me find help.

Angie Lion: 32:56

Let me sit down. Let me organize the mess. Let me find help. Let me find help. A guide, a coach, a mentor, somebody that has done this before, somebody that knows, who's been in the field. So there's guides for the messy middle. That's what I love doing. I just got goosebumps.

Nikisha King: 33:08

That was such a good one.

Angie Lion: 33:09

I need a guide when I'm in the middle, and even as somebody who does it for other people, I need somebody, somebody who does it for other people.

Nikisha King: 33:16

I need somebody. We all do. The thing about it now is coaching became relevant and it became in. It became available to people who could afford it. We don't realize. We had Earl Nightingale, we had Napoleon Hill, do you not understand? That's what they were. They were business coaches. They didn't have the title, but that is who they were. And back then women didn't work, men did, and that's who they went to so they can climb that corporate ladder. That's who they listened to. And today we just have more access and more people, and now the market's a little bit open. So now you could find your person. So you're 100% right Find someone to guide you through your messy middle. I love that, and as a coach, maybe you, you can't take that leap.

Angie Lion: 34:01

So you need somebody to help walk along with, to you know, to offer support, because coaches don't make your decisions for you. They only question you and help you. They bring out what's already inside. You already are a gem. It's chipping away some of the things that the beliefs and the thoughts of that you know, maybe holding you back.

Angie Lion: 34:20

So the new beginning is for me. I love new beginnings, I love a fresh new month. You know, I love the fresh identity. I love like I get to be who I want. I'm deciding I created. Now I'm the chief sole officer. I'm not a CEO, I'm the chief sole officer of my company because I get to decide what I am and who I am.

Angie Lion: 34:41

And and titles to me aren't even. You know it's something I do, but who am I right? Who am I as an essence and as a being? That's to this in this phase of life. I'm really in that phase of who am I as a being, not as a title, what does not what my resume says, but who do I want to be who? What do I? My eulogy to look like? Like that is where I'm at in life. Now I know the first part of life. We are hustling and we're trying to, like you know, follow the success scripts of life and whatever other people are telling us, but really slowing down and finding out who you are is super important to listening to your inner calling and to not drowning it out and doing what everybody else is doing and figuring out what your soul is calling you to do and stop following everybody else's success script for your life.

Nikisha King: 35:31

I love that. That's very powerful, that is very true, I believe, when you connect to who you truly are as a spiritual being because I always tell people I'm a spiritual being first and then I'm having a human experience and I love my human experience because it's 50-50. There is no good, there is no bad, it just is. And in that journey I get to learn and I get to develop more and I allow my spiritual being to step out. And that's what you're talking about the soul, the soul, the chief soul officer. And when we show up that way, we connect, we build a lot of connection and we serve.

Nikisha King: 36:04

I no longer sell things as a business owner. I don't have to sell anything. I listen well and I go can I solve this problem or can I help solve this problem? And if the answer is yes, I will let you know how and I will let you choose if you desire that help or not. And half of the time when people are in all the messes the beginning, the middle and the end they think they can't afford it, because they put money as an objection. And I go, it's not about affording it, you don't prioritize it because your value of self is low, because you don't think you're worth it.

Nikisha King: 36:38

Oh yeah, yes, but being who I am, I know you're worth it and I know the gift that you have was meant to be to serve the people you're here to serve. So I'm going to tell you the honest truth about what's happening and then you get to look at that. But I'm not here to convince you because I do not want to work with anyone. I had to convince. I do not want you to be in my realm because you won't show up for yourself. But I know, if you trust yourself, love yourself and believe in yourself, I will be your biggest cheerleader, your biggest guide, your biggest supporter, and that is what I do today. But I do not sell anything. I don't require selling anything. I don't want to sell anything because I don't want anyone who don't want to show up for themselves.

Angie Lion: 37:18

I don't want to chase anything, you don't ever need that place in my business, like I don't in my relationships. I just don't want to chase anything. I want to attract what is meant to attract and be with people who value my skills and expertise as well, and ever since I've made that shift and not chasing or it really does it's kind of like clingy energy. Nobody really likes that.

Nikisha King: 37:41

I have a situation with the word clingy and chase and let me share with why. Okay, when you say the word chase, the first visual I get is running behind someone. And in what I do, there is someone who's going to try to run. But I don't, I'm not chasing, but I will go. You need to stop running. I will. And the reason I say that is because it can still be looking like it could still look like I'm chasing them, but I don't want to give up on you yet. I want to make sure, as you're running, I'll run beside you and I'm going to listen to you. So I'm still running with you, but I'm going to say are you sure? And I'm going to show you the things that's in your way, and you get to look at them, because right now you can't see them.

Nikisha King: 38:25

And the reason I say that is because sometimes some people feel like they're chasing people and when they use that word and they have the visual, they stop in the middle of the possibility of helping that person because they feel like they're chasing, if that makes sense.

Angie Lion: 38:39

I love that visual. Does that make sense? I completely see where you're going. You're making sure that they have all the opportunities before they turn it down, kind of.

Nikisha King: 38:51

Yes and I don't need to, and some people think of it chasing. So when you say to me, what happens is some people who use that as an excuse not to keep going is to go. If someone says, well, I don't have money, they go. I'm not going to chase you, but that objection about money is not real, so what I need to do is go. Ok, you're saying you don't have money. I understand that. But let me ask you this If you get off the phone call today, will your life change?

Nikisha King: 39:18

Will this situation? You told me where you want to go and where you are today will it? Will it change? And if they say no, then it's still my obligation to understand. Then how important is this to you? Yes?

Nikisha King: 39:31

So when you tell me your money objection, I cannot say I'm not going to chase you and let you go because I'm not serving you. But if I go, help, wait, hold on. Let me understand this, let me be there with you, let me help, let me understand so I can help you. I want to walk beside you. I don't want your money because in your mind, that's what you think I want. So your first objection is I don't have money, your money, because in your mind, that's what you think I want. So your first objection is I don't have money, but no one's after you for your money. I truly want to help you and I know I have what it takes to help you, if you just trust you. Because sometimes people don't trust themselves. That's part of the triad of selling. They don't believe they can do it, they don't believe they can transform and I'm like no, you can, I can see it. All you need help with is seeing it for yourself.

Nikisha King: 40:12

Yeah, so that's what I say because sometimes, as entrepreneurs, we do use these words that I don't believe are ours. I truly don't. I believe they were given to us through marketing and they sometimes don't serve us because of the thought we have with that visual. They create emotions. I don't want to chase you. That is not a I'm happy motion doesn't come from that terminology, but I just wanted to share that with you and my listeners, because sometimes I see people do that. I'm not chasing no one, but it's not from a place of how can I help you? And let me go deeper. It's a place from I was rejected and I'm hurt and since I'm hurt, I'm not going to do you understand Like not you can say, but I've seen people do that. I'm a create boundaries and I'm just like the boundary. What kind of you creating? Are you shutting people out because you've been hurt or you creating boundaries that will protect you to be better for the people you serve? There's two different types.

Angie Lion: 41:07

Well, I see that as a wall, not a boundary. And they would use the word boundary. But yes, you get it Like that. It's not permeable. It is not creating a space for both parties to be successful. A healthy boundary creates a space for both people to be successful? Yes, and it gives them permission to know what's to be expected, and it is designed to help people. It's not designed to shut people out.

Nikisha King: 41:34

And people use that boundary word like a war word, but they don't know the difference. And it's not that they're doing it on purpose. It's the emotion that's driving that word out their mouth. That's why listening is so crucial, because you hear things and what they think they're saying. You're like wait a minute, something else is happening here.

Angie Lion: 41:54

Yes.

Nikisha King: 41:54

And that's the joy that I have. That's the gift that I was given. That's the gift that I love with all my being. Yeah.

Angie Lion: 42:00

Yeah, can I address that boundary piece? Because this is something that I was. I'm talking about it in my book, too, because I am seeing a problem with people bounding up so much that they're losing relationships. Estrangement is higher than it's ever been and I think a lot of it is because things come out of context in our in fast places like TikTok and Instagram and they learn a thing or two about a boundary, and so now they're like yep, I'm doing this, I'm, you're out here, you know, and it's just context matters in everything. And it's just context matters in everything, and it's sometimes we need to slow down and we need to ask more questions and we need to be become more curious.

Angie Lion: 42:38

One of the tools that I've been using in in creating boundaries because I do think they're healthy, but, like I said you, we want to create boundaries that create connection, so that we're setting someone the boundary isn't to create disconnection, unless it's an abuse. Abuse is different, right, but we're just talking about in a relationship at work or in our families, where we want that relationship. I've been using Brene Brown's model, which is living big, which is you're creating boundaries, you're being in integrity and you have generosity, so let's just talk about. We know what the boundary part is, but the boundary should create a space where that person knows what to do to be successful in this relationship. I will accept this. I won't accept that.

Angie Lion: 43:23

Right Now, then, integrity being whole and actually living in your values. You say you value kindness, or you say value kindness, or you say you value respect, or you say you value whatever it is that we value. Right, each of us have our own different values, but are you in integrity with your values and in alignment with those values that you speak of? And then so it's a self-check-in, right. Am I actually being kind? Am I being loving, compassionate, because these are values that I have? So am I? I have to check myself and my then.

Angie Lion: 43:50

So it's a self-check-in, right. Am I actually being kind? Am I being loving, compassionate, because these are values that I have? So am I. I have to check myself and my boundaries. Is this boundary that I'm setting loving, compassionate, kind and clear? And then genera is it generous? Am I giving them the benefit of the doubt, or am I holding, or am I punishing, or am I using, let's say, children as a pawn or whatever Like? Is this a generous? Am I being generous to this person Because I know I would want people, if they're creating a boundary with me, to be loving, to be kind, to be clear, so I know what to be, to do to be successful. And then are they being generous with me, that I too want to succeed. I want a healthy relationship. I'm not trying to make their life miserable.

Nikisha King: 44:35

Right right, angie, I appreciate you so much. You share a wealth of knowledge For myself, for my listeners, for some people. I'm coaching some people. I know I cannot wait to share this episode with them. I would like to wrap it up and I would like you to leave us with maybe three things that we can do to help us with our emotional intelligence.

Angie Lion: 44:57

Go ahead, I didn't get to the fear part and I think that would be one of the best steps is to understand and identify some of the fears that you have, because I think fear is one of the most powerful emotions. Our brain is wired for it to keep us alive.

Nikisha King: 45:13

So I and we can always bring that back. We can always do another episode on that, because a lot of people have that and we can make a discussion over that one.

Angie Lion: 45:20

So I'd like people to identify their fears in and in their transition, like if they're coming to an end. What emotions are they actually experiencing as they're coming to an end? What emotions are they actually experiencing as they're coming to an end, is it? You know what is? What are the fears? Uncertainty, fear of not being good enough, things like that. So they start to uncover the actual fears that they have with their self. Then take it a little bit broader to what are the fears as it relates to their family and their close community, right? What are the fears or the beliefs that they have in that realm? Write all of those down. What are those fears? That they don't want you to be successful, that they won't like your decisions, that they're going to think you're dumb from leaving that safe job, right? What are those fears? And then the larger picture what are the fears or the threats as it relates to the, the larger community, the world?

Angie Lion: 46:13

So we have all these fears and so sometimes getting clear about them and finding out what's actual fear versus what's a perceived fear as we perceive some of them that aren't real, and that's where the guides can come in and help us ask questions, find out more about what's an actual fear? Will that really happen? If it does, what's worst case fear? Will that really happen? If it does, what's worst case scenario? You know, like all of these kinds of things. So finding a guide is going to be the biggest way to see your blind spots and have somebody question you and give you different, diverse perspectives, diversity of thought and and being okay with sharing those emotions that you're having, because you have to name them, to tame them.

Nikisha King: 46:52

So true. Thank you, angie, and I love the last line you just gave. You have to name them to tame them. So good. Thank you for being here. Thank you for sharing a wealth of knowledge. I look forward to having you back and we can speak about the next topic, fear, which is a good one, because fear is false evidence appearing real. It's not really real. So I'm looking forward to that conversation. Listeners, thank you guys so much for being here. Thank you for always investing your time with us, and I hope not even hope I know the value you're taking away from here, because this is work that we have to do, the deep work to be the leaders who we are or we're becoming. So definitely join me for my next masterclass and USC information in the show notes, and I will definitely have other information for you guys. Have an amazing day and see you next week.

Announcer: 47:42

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